The interview
From HanMariepedia, the spiritual encyclopedia

Q. Han Marie, after our nice talk some weeks ago, could we now turn to the specifics of your teaching?

A. With pleasure. Since this teaching is a breakthrough it needs patience to explain it again and again. It is a major part of my job.

Q. Why you emphasize that your teaching is a breakthrough? Look at the millions who practice yoga, the tens of thousands who are involved in mindfulness, qigong etc. Does the world still need a new approach?

A. Whatever spiritual practice you pursue, it is the motivation behind that is decisive. The latter determines if your path is spiritual or pseudo-spiritual....

Q. Could you elaborate?

A. It can be traced back to the origin of patriarchal religions. At a certain moment men refused to be part of everyday life and started their "quest for eternity". Or, like Buddhist say "their escape from the cycle of birth and death". Rather than living in harmony with the universe, "salvation", "liberation" and personal freedom became the dominating drives.

Q. Something that is still the case today?

A. Right. It is personal wellbeing, that motivates a vast majority to join yoga classes, mindfulness or qigong practises. While they think their path is very spiritual, in reality it comes down to using "spirituality" for their own ego-interests.

Q. Like optimizing your performance, improving your career chances, reducing your stress-levels, striving for happiness etc.

A. It doesn't mean this is all bad. If your starting point is suffering and inner chaos, it is justified to try to improve your situation. The point is: because the "outside" world's demands are limitless, your ego-desires are limitless too, your self-centered practice will never transform itself to a higher level.

Q. Which is?

A. It is very ironical. While in fomer days "freedom" was sought in "escaping from the Whole", nowadays true spirituality is exactly the opposite: an alienated ego, that has to become part of the Whole, once again.

Q. It means a shift in paradigm of 180 degrees!

A. The point is that the ego cannot liberate itself. Lucky are those, who are discovering this.

Q. Unfortunately, the masses have not yet grasped this..

A. Because of their ego-ambitions they have become an important support to the current life-contempting socio-economic system, despite all nice words about "creating a better world"..

Q. Hence the necessity of a fundamental breakthrough?

A. If you come to this point, then you are already "saved". Once you let it down into your innermost core, a "sacred restlessness" will take possession of you.

Q. My own disappointments with my ego-attempts helped me a lot.

A. The more ego-disasters in your life, the better. The pain of being a failure, prevents you from going on repeating the same thing all over again. You start looking for something bigger than the ego, something to surrender your ego to.

Q. The ego is pain.

A. Only when you had enough painful experiences, due to be identified with you self-centered atttitude, being locked up in your small self, to live a life of vicious circles, everything making you increasingly mad, yes, that is a good pre-requisite, indeed.

Q. Still no need for "liberation?"

A. Very clever question. Crucial is to realize the true nature of your problem. Is it just "being unhappy" with the desire to become happy? Or do you need a deeper insight into yourself, e.g. what is ego?

Q. Without insight into your problem no solution?

A. Indeed. Just defining the ego as self-centeredness or "identification with your self-image" is not enough. More questions have to be asked. How did it  happen? If you don't, if you reduce you problem to a single category (self-centeredness), then the ego's "solution" is equally single-minded.

Q. Trying to become enlightened.

A. To have insight into the origination of ego as our culture's main pillar, it is necessary to know its history. Initially, it was the breaking away of the male self from the inclusivity of the Cosmic Mother. In later centuries followed by the oppression of the Church, destroying the remainders of "pagan" culture. By doing so - a terror that lasted many centuries - all ties with "Heaven, earth and the community" were cut. The only option left was to fall back on the only faculty that wasn't affected: the ego.

Q. The result an alienated entity....

A. Your identity as a separate entity, cut off from its context - Heaven, earth and the community - that is ego.

Q. Instead identifying itself with its own creations...

A. That comes very much to the core of the matter. We have replaced our Existential Reality by our own ego-projections, cumulating in the artificial world of today.

Q. "Liberation" thus doesn't mean designing some new nice goal, even if it is Enlightenment, but becoming part of life, once again.

A. Well said, that's why becoming part of the Whole, once again, is the real solution to our problem. This isn't popular, though. People prefer to "to strive for Enlightenment", logically, because this comes forth out of ego-ambition! If it means giving up your ego, then people become less enthusiastic...

Q. Maybe because the ego and its artificial world have become such strong allies nowadays...

A. Let me explain. The human mind moves between Eternal Space on the one hand and identification with the ego on the other (and everything in between: e.g. awareness, Satori). Eternal Space can be realized by feeling the backside of your body (that's why saints are portrayed with a halo on the BACK side of their heads!), while the ego is "located" at the frontside. The surprise: being one with the Divine Space (backside), the ego ceases as separate entity. Being on the other hand identified with the ego (frontside), you loose contact with Eternity. It appears that these two poles exclude each other!

Q. This is something to contemplate on!

A. The stronger the ego-forces - thoughts, images, emotions and desires - all appearing IN FRONT of us, the more we are pulled out of our center, simultaneously loosing our contact with our inherent Divine Nature, which "rests in the BEHIND".

Q. Like the current addictions to the "virtual world"....

A. "Normally", a single thought is enough to pull our awareness out of its "center". This our awareness is so weak, that the majority of people have no idea about it. They don't know who they are. What about the uninterrupted tsunami of emotionally charged images, produced by the electronic media? They are so strong, that you are PERMANENTLY absorbed by them. While you think your mind is very much alive.....in Realty, because of being cut off from your Inner Space - the Source of all  inherent, natural life - your mind is frozen, rigid, mute, paralysed. The problem is: when you never ever felt your inner Life before, you won't realize that you are dead.

Q. While people thinking of themselves, that they represent the crown of human civilization...

A. Do you need more proof of how deep we have sunk?

Q. Then, the "virtual world" is like a new religion, having everybody under its spell.

A. A well-known caricature depics three children on a daytour with their mother. While the mother tries to call attention to the warmth of the sun, the beauty of the blossoms and the spectacular mountains at the horizon, the children are totally absorbed by their iPads, just muttering under their breath: "yea mum, yea mum".

Q. Loosing contact with Reality, does it mean the world is lost?

A. Let's assume very soon the "virtual world" is going to dominate life, like it is already the case with our children.....Once being addicted by the artificial one, you won't care about the real anymore. You have become a zombie in a realm that is steered by one-dimensionality, leading to Angst and Aggression, eventually to a collective burn-out. Evolutionary medicine tells us, that we are part of the natural world, though. Without it (wo)mankind will not survive.

Q. Until now it doesn't seem, that "spirituality" is showing (wo)mankind the way out....

A. Here is the connection with current "spiritual" practice. If people exchange one obsession (ego) by another ("liberation"), nothing has changed for the better. It is the reason why this kind of (pseudo)spirituality has such a happy marriage with the individualistic and materialistic forces of current capitalism.

Q. If the ego cannot save you, despite all its efforts, what can?

A. It cannot, because of its efforts. E.g. you want to get rid of your stress. Even the thought is already enough to create additional stress. A more dramatic example. The Buddha saw the suffering of the world around him and (his ego) decided.....to devote his life to overcome suffering. He failed.

Q. Failed?

A. To wake up is certainly a decisive step in emancipation. When it wants to become fruitful though, a second step has to be taken: to become part of "Heaven, earth and the (new) community", once again.

Q. Is there still hope?

A. A "civilization" based on extreme egoism has no future. Sooner or later (sooner) major disasters will increase, a sudden collapse of the system is likely. Hopefuls are those who give up their ego's, together with abandoning the corresponding socio-economic structures. Because the ego not being able to give itself up by itself, "something" beyond has to be found, something to which the ego has no answer.

Q. Something that doesn't give the ego any chance to identify itself with....

A.  Right. As you know, the only Realm that can "achieve" this, is Absolute Nothingness. The turning point happened in 1977, when it - as Cosmic Mother - revealed Herself to me. In Her Bottomlessness your ego disappears, while you will be reborn as your True Self. In my case it was the unique Threefold Cosmic Realization. Everybody who takes refuge in Her, is going to be renewed, be it a smaller or bigger breakthrough.

Q. Spiritual renewal at the base of social transformation.

A.  Oh, yes. It is perfectly clear that only New People can create a New World.

Q. The climate disaster makes this only much more urgent.

A. There is only one answer to this: "We are the environmental crisis". Nature has nothing to do with it. Obviously, forests have to be preserved, and bio-diversity protected. The danger is that we project our own inner problem into the outside world.

Q. What would be your answer then?

A. The decisive step for all conscious people is to overcome their individualism, while creating alliances with other "soulmates". Our hope can only come from community-building. I personally stimulate the creation of spiritual communities ("Healing Communities") based on three pillars: "taking refuge in the Origin, a daily "monastic" schedule and serving others". Like in the Dark Ages these "monastic centres" could become a first step to transforming society.

Q. What do you expect of women? Could they play a decisive role here?

A. Tricky question. Twenty years ago we in the West had still some hope, that women would play a major role in transforming Self and Society. That hope is gone. Western women (I don't speak of women in Non-Western countries) focus entirely on developing their male (ego!) part. To a certain extent this is good.

Q. What is not so good?

A. "Modern women" are only interested in their personal careers, and lost any criticism toward the exploitative system they live in. These women have become major supporters of the current growth-obesessed and consumerist society. Men on the other hand....(I say it reluctantly) "have seen it all" (career etc.). They therefore tend to be more open to alternatives.

Q. What could be your role in these most critical of times?

A. I feel eternally grateful to the Cosmic Mother for having chosen me as the vehicle for Her Revelation. Through it my responsibility is limitless. Every day I am confronted by my limited abilities to put everything She granted to me, into practice. I feel limited by all kinds of factors within and without. Comparing it with what has to be done nowadays to "Heal the Planet", I often feel totally inadequate. 

Q. Does that makes you sad?

A. Sometimes I long for more involvement in the events of the world. More contact with real people. On the other hand my life is that of a "hermit", living a life in close contact with the Origin. One doesn't necessary exclude the other, of course. I also fully take into account that my teachings will be picked up only after my death. It is the reason for this website's size. I have put in everything that seemed relevant.

Q. On the other hand you are well aware of your universal calling e.g. mission...

A. People don't realize that I came forward only after some 33 years since my Great Experiences. My life is thus quite different from those, who after an initial (smaller or bigger) breakthrough (or not even that!) immediately proclaim themselves as a spiritual teacher.

Q. This is intrigueing, please tell us more.

A. After ten years of uninterrupted Bliss, including some more Realizations, the intensity of THAT became less. It withdrew, only to stay in the background. Through its withdrawal I was exposed to some very stubborn emotional complexes, which in all those ten years, without me realizing it, had not entirely dissolved.

Q. Whaw, that certainly was a disappointment!

A. It was. It was the proof of the fact that even after the most complete Cosmic Realization the ego comes back.

Q. No "Once Enlightened, always Enlightened" as some claim.

A. Once you had a major breakthrough IT will always stay with you. Only, you won't always be fully absorbed by it. Sooner or later you are "thrown back" on more common levels of Being, including being identified with the ego.

Q. Back to zero....

A. Yes, in a way, and at that time I consciously chose to do so. I realized that this is reality as it is. Rather than clinging to Enlightenment (the greatest temptation to all who attained some kind of Satori), I realized that not Realization, but Wholeness is the ultimate aim of the Path. With other words, only if your personality, your small self, is fully integrated, you are qualified to start spiritual teaching. This period of integration is called the "Dark Night of the Soul". In my case it lasted some 20 years.

Q. Making you humble rather than complacent.....

A. As Maitreya Buddha puts it: "Realizing my imperfections of the past, I have come (to earth) as a common man".

Q. You often talk about your Mission. Don't you have an organization to support you?

A. The power of my "Mission" is to bring the Reality of the Mother closer to the everyday reality of people. The more direct they make contact with each other, the more beneficial it will be. Everything unnecessary that might come in between only distracts from the Essence. The first pre-requisite is that the Servant-Teacher doesn't accumulate irrelevant things. Hence, from the very beginning I have never had an organization, never accumulated money or wealth, never had a center etc. In the near future I will certainly be very grateful to everyone who supports me in my basic needs, though: housing, food, travel....

Q. You think your website has been completed now?

A. A most satisfying thing is, that my life exactly reflects the Vision I received in 1974. After an initial period of 10 years of Bliss, I had to start sharing everything selflessly. It took more than 12 years to write everything down. I had to pay a price for it, though, because inevitably a great deal of mind was involved all the time. I am happy that this is behind me now. The period to come, I simply live a life of unity with the Cosmic Mother. I will be not in between anymore, which is a great relief.

Q. What will be the core of your teaching?

A. Two things are complementary: the teaching directly from the Heart and the necessary amount of knowledge supporting it. The former is realized through "live" meetings with all those who are sincere, while the latter can be read in the website. Central in the teaching are "to return to the Origin in order to become renewed", "to become part of the Whole - Heaven, earth and the (new) community, once again" - and the "commitment to Healing the Planet".

Q. Could you elaborate?

A. A most favorable situation is that, in which you are with your back against the wall. You tried every ego-trick to help you out of life's impasse, but nothing worked. Even spiritual practice didn't give the liberation you hoped for. So you are quite desperate. With every road blocked there appears only one opening left: unconditional ego-surrender to the Cosmic Mother.

Q. I feel a shivering in my body, probably, because not having a choice anymore, brings intensity back into my life!

A. "Jai Mata Di" (may the Mother prevail) is an old Indian outburst of joy. That is what I feel rightnow.

Q. But this is only the beginning, I understand.

A. Most "paths of liberation" stop with the birth of your New Self. For us on the other hand it is the beginning. In various aspects. Surrender to the Mother isn't a one time affair. Because the ego is constantly returning (even if it once "died"), our prayers to the Mother become daily practice. Very soon it becomes your "first nature", an expression of belonging, exceeding any self-created goal (like giving up your ego).

Q. Beautiful! What started as a problem becomes a celebration of life, the joy of being part of Reality, once again.

A. Very much so. You have found the "Fountain of Renewal" - also called the Grail, symbol for the Cosmic Womb - and "nothing" (....) can take Her Nothingness from you. Have you ever dreamt that Nothingness would become your greatest treasure? You cannot possess it, the ego has become what it should be: a servant, you owe everything to Her and nobody can take Her from you....

Q. Nothingness is everywhere...

A. It seems, you got the taste of IT already (laughing)

Q. But isn't what She grants you the Eternal Light?

A. The Eternal Light - the Divine, God - is Her Light Body, Her first emanation. The miracle is, that surrendering to the Darkness of the Cosmic Womb, the Light will be bestowed upon you. This is not a "personal gift". It is simply the consequence of the fact that you submitted yourself to "Cosmic Law". The quality of the Light might differ considerably, though, from simply becoming aware to full-blown Enlightenment.

Q. What is the difference with the "normal" practice of meditation?

A. First of all, in the beginning self-effort is recommendable. Long ago I myself have been sitting (Zen) five times a day. Sooner or later your efforts increasingly become frustrated. Effort comes from ego, hence, the harder you try, the stronger your ego becomes. It is the moment to acknowledge the limits of it, entrusting yourself to the Mother. The difference is, that from that moment on, the Mother is doing the job for you!

Q. The Path of Effortlessness?

A. Surrender is effortless, provided your trust in the Mother is limitless. Later in the process, when actively facilitating your re-entry into the Whole, you become Her helper ("mother's little helper" gets a new meaning here....big laugh). There are many ways of "Restoring the Harmony with Heaven, Earth and the (new) Community". Everybody is invited to find out which way is best.

Q. Do you offer help, once people are in this stage?

A. Self-evidently, yes. Because of individual differences, possibilities and needs I designed several ways, practices and techniques. They all can be found in this website. Some of them I offer in the meetings, as well.

Q. What is the outcome of this second step of the Path?

A. You have become a New Man/A New Woman, not living life from the perspective of the ego, anymore, but from the perspective of the Whole. With your Spirit as part of Heaven, with your body as part of the earth and with your "soul" as part of the (new) community.

Q. Even this step is not the ultimate one, you once told me.

A. That's right. Some - if not all - will feel the need to actively committing him/herself to what I called "Cosmic Mother Healing the Planet". It takes into account, that the majority of (wo)mankind is living in abominal circumstances and this without their fault. It is a ruthless socio-economic system, forced upon them by the "enlightened" people of the North, which drives them in ever greater despair: hunger, wars, environmental pollution, epidemics and much more. In this regard, it is good to realize, that the Mother isn't there for a small group of "chosen ones" only, but for all and everybody. As Her representatives on earth, we have an obligation to solidarize ourselves with the weakest among us.

Q.  In order to facilitate this, you have designed 10 Steps.

A. Ten different steps, yes, making it possible for everybody to step in there, where one's strength lies, varying from A New Cosmology to A New Economy, to A New Education to A New Earth. For a complete overview, please go back to the index page.

Q. Good idea.

A. Wishing you a very meaningful life as a Servant to the Whole, I pray to the Mother She is going to give you all the wisdom, love and strength you need in accomplishing your mission. And who knows "maybe we will meet once"

Okay for today?

Q. More than that, thank you!

A. It's Nothing (....).

JAI MATA DI!
(May the Mother prevail)